Investigators' Round Table
Investigators' Round Table is a virtual space where those in the private investigations, security, and legal industries can come together to discuss topics included but not limited to industry trends, services offered, business strategy and fun stories that are otherwise good at cocktail parties (we are usually the most interesting ones in the room). The goal of the podcast is to provide industry camaraderie for those that participate in the discussions as well as transparency so that the general public has a clear understanding of how they can benefit from our services. Podcast will be playable on all major platforms (apple. Spotify etc.) as well as social media, and private webpages such as this one. It will also be shared in industry networking groups.
If you would like to be interviewed please contact podcast host at amanda@immaculatepi.com.
Investigators' Round Table
Debugging Corporate Board Rooms with Peter Psarouthakis
Uncover the intricate world of private investigations and corporate security as we promise to reveal the secrets to safeguarding sensitive information from eavesdropping devices. Join me, Amanda Appi, alongside Peter Psarouthakis , owner of EWI and Associates Inc., as we explore the fascinating realm of technical surveillance countermeasures (TSCM). Peter shares his expertise on bug sweeps and the nuances of preventing corporate espionage, offering a rich narrative filled with real-world examples that highlight the vital role of specialized knowledge and high-end equipment in the security landscape.
Embark on a journey through the evolution of an investigative business. We discuss the strategic transition to a streamlined business model and the importance of associations for credibility and marketing. Peter and I recall intriguing cases, including a tape recorder connected to a corporate president’s phone line, illustrating the tangible impact of our work. The episode dives deep into ethical practices, legal compliance, and effective marketing strategies, underscoring the significance of networking and professional growth in the industry.
As Peter approaches retirement, he offers insights into winding down a PI career and the importance of strategic networking for securing final projects. Reflect on the differences between law enforcement and private investigation, while learning valuable advice for newcomers to the field. We explore the future of counter-surveillance work and extend an invitation for listeners to engage further with our content. Discover how professional associations like ASIS International can enhance credibility and create new opportunities, ensuring sustained success in the ever-evolving world of private investigation.
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A virtual round table where leaders in the private investigations and private security industries come together to discuss, tips and tricks for newbies, business strategy, and stories of memorable cases.
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This podcast is hosted by:
Amanda Appi
Immaculate Investigations LLC
southcarolinadetectiveagency.com
Welcome to the Investigator's Roundtable, where I, your host of Real Life PI, will interview leaders in the private investigations and private security industries. We'll be discussing things such as business strategy, tips and tricks for newbies and going over some memorable cases that we have worked. My goal with this podcast is to create a virtual space for industry professionals to come together and to collaborate, as well as to pull back the curtain so that you, the audience, can see behind the scenes in what is sometimes a mysterious and misunderstood profession. I'm your host, amanda Appy, of Immaculate Investigations LLC, located in Myrtle Beach, south Carolina. For more information on me or my company, you can go to SouthCarolinaDetectiveAgencycom. I hope you enjoy this episode and thanks so much for listening. Hello everyone, welcome to Episode 4 of Investigators Roundtable. It is Monday, september 16th, and I am here with my friend, peter. Peter is the owner of EWI and Associates Inc. And that is a PI firm. Welcome, peter. Thank you so much for joining us. Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and your business if you don't mind?
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me, amanda. I'm Peter Sarathakis, as you just heard, the owner and president of EWI and Associates Inc. In DeWitt, Michigan, coming on 30 years of being in business in this business, and we specialize in background investigations for the federal government and technical surveillance countermeasures for government and corporations.
Speaker 3:So that is fascinating. So you are well-versed in how to win government contracts, is what you're saying. So we'll have to talk off this, maybe, but why don't you explain the surveillance, technical surveillance countermeasures for those people who don't know what that is?
Speaker 1:So TSCM is known as is really what otherwise known as bug sweeps. We find, or we we look for eavesdropping devices or different for companies and government departments. It's a preventative security measure for information loss board meetings, technical conferences, that kind of thing where they don't want information leaving the area. And this is just one of the aspects of security of a program to plug that hole, to make sure that nothing's leaving electronically.
Speaker 3:Wow, so that is fascinating. Is that a pretty common thing? I mean it kind of goes along with. I guess you would categorize that as corporate espionage or intellectual property theft. Is that pretty common, or is it few and far between?
Speaker 1:Well, it's more common than you probably would think, but it's not an everyday occurrence for sure. Again, most of the time that we're hired for instance, there's a big board meeting for a corporation coming up here in October that we're doing a preventative sweep of that area so that their board of directors can feel confident that what they talk about in there doesn't leave there by electronic means. Interesting.
Speaker 1:So but yes, there are bad actors out there that do do you know, do do this. And of course there's also and it's not just corporate espionage. There's, for instance, just this week here in Michigan I wasn't part of this, but it was in the news there's a very large church where, unfortunately, the minister had planted hidden cameras in the restrooms.
Speaker 3:That actually happened here not too long ago as well. Kind of sick, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there's those kind of bad actors as well.
Speaker 3:Wow, that's fascinating. So how long would you say like to sweep a corporate boardroom? Let's say, how long does that take from start to finish?
Speaker 1:We're usually there all day and night.
Speaker 3:Okay, wow, so it's pretty and you have specialized equipment. So that is one area I do not do, my company does not do, because you have to be, you have to have specialized knowledge in the specialized equipment for that, I'm assuming.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's the thing in the professional investigator world out there, the PI world is. Many PIs, unfortunately buy some two $300 piece of equipment, $400 piece of equipment. Red light, green light blinks. You know they say they do TSCM work when in reality that's not really legit. I mean, there are some decent pieces of equipment but you know, your spectrum analyzers are 25 to 35, 45 and up, thousands of 25,000 and up. Wow.
Speaker 3:Wow, so you have to specialize in it to make it worth it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you got to have the training in the background and that kind of thing. I'm not saying there's not a need for a lesser thing. On occasion there's. You know technology has gotten a lot better, so you know there's some equipment out there you can check vehicle for GPS trackers.
Speaker 3:I've never had good luck with those and that is a common occurrence. We do a lot of domestic so we get cheating spouses that are tracking cheating spouses basically, and everybody wants to know if they're being tracked. I've never had good luck with them, so we'll have to get your recommendation on, maybe a good one. I usually my go-to is put the car up on a lift and just look for it.
Speaker 1:The number one way things are found in this aspect of security investigative world is through the physical search.
Speaker 3:And you have to know what you're looking for, though.
Speaker 1:That's the key, but nine times out of 10, it's usually the physical search with a good old-fashioned flashlight that is finding things, uh, at more so than the thirty thousand dollar piece of equipment, uh, but you have to do both. You know everything. It's kind of a circular. Everything depends on everything else. So use this piece of equipment for this, but you're physically checking this, another piece of equipment for that, and, uh, and you hope you, you fill all the holes so that when you're completed with a project, it's, it is complete.
Speaker 3:Interesting. That's fascinating. There's not too many people that do that. I think I only know of like one other person in the industry that I would refer somebody to that does it. So now I know you, so that's great. What about the background checks? Do you do background checks for like security clearances, or you know the government?
Speaker 1:That's exactly what we're doing Background checks for security clearances A little bit more than a handful of agencies now, and it's been a very successful part of the business and I would consider it a recession-proof business because security clearances are always needed and they're not pulling away, regardless of the economy.
Speaker 3:That's interesting. So that's something I've looked into in recent times, trying to get into myself and I guess I would consider it more of a background investigation. So we do a lot of background investigations, which I differentiate between background checks and investigations. Checks I, you know, anybody can run that, but investigations is more in depth. So there's definitely a need for that, especially when you're talking. You know security clearances because you're out there interviewing references and trying to get paint the whole picture rather than run you know a report off the internet or whatever. So that I could see would be keep you busy for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a. You know it's a character investigation, not just a find out if you committed crimes or those kind of things, but it's also to find out what kind of person you are. And I've always considered investigations in the private sector. We're basically the private sector's intelligence gathering arm, for whoever your clients are. We collect information, we package it and we present it to our clients, whoever they are, so they can make a more informed decision. We don't make the decisions for them, and it goes in every aspect. I've done a lot of different aspects of investigative work in the private sector and it always boils down to that. Whether you're doing surveillance for an insurance company or you're cheating spouse cases, the best case you're gathering that information, you're giving it to your client and then hopefully they can use that information in some way to help them make a better informed decision, whatever that may be. And background investigations of federal government are no different. Yeah, that's a great point and that investigations of federal government are no different.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a great point and that's what I always try to tell my new investigators that I bring on. We are not the judge and the jury, right, so we're just the fact finders. We go out, we get the facts, we present the facts and we leave our opinions and our conclusions out of it for the most part, unless we're asked. But yeah, that's a great point, we just present the information and our job is done. So how did you get into the field? Because you said you've been in it for what? 30 years. So what is your background? What led you up to, you know, starting a company or becoming an investigator?
Speaker 1:So my educational background. I went to the University of Toledo and I was in this Associates of Law Enforcement program and their police academy and then that led into getting my four-year degree, bachelor's of Science, in Criminal Justice. And so I went through that and the police academy there in Ohio and at that time, unlike now, no one was hiring for law enforcement. It was, you know, you'd have one position and, you know, 5,000 applicants. Now you have police departments begging for people all over the country to come, so it's a totally different environment.
Speaker 1:So I wasn't finding a job in the areas I wanted to be in and uh I someone introduced me to uh, an investigative firm and suggested I give that a try. And uh, I immediately fell in love with it. I was doing insurance fraud surveillance at that time and after a while there I decided that my ego got the best of me and I decided to start my own business and also further my education in electronic countermeasures, which has led me to doing, you know, tscm work, because I found that there was a niche for it. But I also needed to know how to do it and do it properly and not just be one of these red light, green light guys out there. Right, exactly that's so important.
Speaker 1:So I went and got specialized training in that and invested a good amount of money in the business and started doing that and then that grew into other things.
Speaker 3:Awesome, and do you have? So it says EWI and Associates. Do you have a partner or something or other people that started the business with you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had a partner initially, a wonderful person who, since retired, now lives in Florida and had two offices at one time here in Michigan At that time, one near Ann Arbor Michigan, michigan, and one in Grand Rapids. Employees and, as later in life you know I'm, like I said, about 30 years I've moved it down to just myself and some 1099 contractors that work with me all the time. Some of them are retired military and law enforcement with tech. Most of that are for the tscm and for the federal background investigations interesting.
Speaker 3:I that's pretty much um the business model. I started with being self-employed and then 1099 contractors and I will say, um, it is less stressful in a lot of ways to do it that way than to have employees. But you're putting out fires, but there's pros and cons to either of them.
Speaker 1:Well right, Absolutely so. You will always be limited to how much money you can make. Exactly. If, if you don't have employees, even if you use 1099s.
Speaker 3:A hundred percent percent, I totally agree you need.
Speaker 1:You know, and that was fine. For me that's just a personal decision, right? I didn't get into this business to become a gazillionaire. I got into this business to support myself, my family. I put two kids through college. You know that are now working professionals of their own and you know, paid the house and all those kinds of things. Yes, you can do all those kinds of things, but if your idea is to become multimillionaire, you're going to have to hire employees and grow a business, to have a different business model.
Speaker 3:For sure, and we'll get into that a little bit later on, as far as business structure and stuff like that, and, like you said, I think most PIs get into that a little bit later on. As far as business structure and stuff like that, and, like you said, I think most PIs get into it because it starts off as, like you said, kind of a calling, where they get involved in it somehow and then they fall in love with it, as you put it. So it really is a calling and I find that most PIs like to work in their business, they like to be the one doing the investigations because they love the profession. So, interesting industry for sure.
Speaker 3:Now, as far as let's see where do I want to go with this? Would you mind sharing an interesting case that you've worked on? Maybe the bug sweeping stuff, if you will? Just, for lack of, you know, just keep it simple worked on. Maybe the bug sweeping stuff, if you will, just, for lack of you know, just keep it simple, we'll call it bug sweeping. We don't get technical on people, but would you share an interesting case that you worked on that is memorable for you?
Speaker 1:well, I guess, uh, when I typically would share a question like that is, uh, we were doing a uh sweep for a very large uh security guard company and uh, yeah, they thought they had an employee issue and so we were going through this whole corporate winning of this security guard company and, uh, this goes back to what I was saying we use all this equipment doing all these things, and me and one of the other guys I think there were four of us there at the time for that one uh, we're moving, we're in this kind of utility closet where they had um copy machine in that, and this is when everybody was still using landlines.
Speaker 3:Okay. So there's like a fax machine and the whole nine yards.
Speaker 1:Right, and they were also using I mean analog lines, where you had the phone block with wires going into it, and I saw that that was behind this filing cabinet and that's one of the things you had to check. Well, you still check the, the phone systems. They just tend to be all computerized these days. But uh, we pulled the, the filing cabinet out and looked right there and there were two alligator clips, the wires going right down to an old-fashioned tape recorder and, um, we traced it and went right to the president's line of the company. Wow.
Speaker 1:And we initiated a counter surveillance thing. At that point we put everything back and we installed a camera in that room and we were able to identify the person retrieving the tape. Wow, that's pretty interesting. And then, like in most cases in corporate America, my invoice got paid really quickly and we never heard what happened.
Speaker 3:Wow, yeah, and sometimes that's the case that you know you don't really know what happens, you don't get, they don't call you and tell you you. So, yeah, that's a good one, that's an interesting one. Transitioning over into the business aspect of things, now I'm going to ask you questions that I probably wouldn't ask other people, just because of your background and what I know about you. Why don't you talk a little bit about associations, the importance of associations, the ones that you have been a part of, and how that's good for marketing and good for getting your name out there?
Speaker 1:So a little bit about my association background. I've been an association junkie for my whole career, that's a good way to put it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like to volunteer and give back. I do that in my personal life too. I'm involved in local government, but I belong to my Michigan Association, michigan Council of Professional Investigators. I was the president of that for many years. I was with NCISS that's a legislative group. I was the first vice president on the board there for a while.
Speaker 1:With the NALA, national Association of Legal Investigators, I was a legislative chair for a long time. I helped with other people start an organization called ISPLA, which is an investigative PAC which is no longer active, but that was very effective at the time of what was needed for the mission that the group wanted to create it for. And then my biggest stint was with IntelliNet, the International Intelligence Network. I was the executive director for nine years. That ended about a little over two years ago, or closer to three now, and being involved in that helped me with my business a lot, for instance the networking aspect. For sure I wouldn't have government contract work if it were not for people I'd met in different organizations One man in particular many years ago who introduced me to the government side and also speaking in front of those groups. So they know who you were and what you did so. If their clients need something that they couldn't handle themselves, they reach out to someone, because not everybody's an expert in everything.
Speaker 3:So true, yeah, I'm more interested in vendors. If I could hire somebody to do it better than me, then that's what I'm doing, for sure, and some PIs aren't like that, but that's just a good business. For sure, and some PIs aren't like that, but that's just a good business model to have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I would say definitely, if you're new, join your state association. Do not get involved, though, with their leadership and board, especially at the beginning. It's filled with people, people. This profession is filled with people, with egos and that includes you and I, like we're gonna be.
Speaker 3:You need to have an ego in this profession so a little bit, I love myself check it every once in a while, though I try to stay humble, but you're only as good as your last case is what I tell people in the association world there is, especially in leaderships of organizations.
Speaker 1:they are. It's pretty brutal. Myself had the knife proverbially shoved in my back several times. You know we have people in leadership that are in their 90s, for instance, one organization that still has their thumb firmly placed on the organization. People don't know when to move on. It's their last stronghold that comes, their identity. So you got to be careful of that. But that all being said, associations is an excellent way, especially for a smaller business that's using 1099 kind of people to help to network and find people around the country. Intellinet, which was, like I said, where I was executive director, is international.
Speaker 1:You have to have 10 years of verified experience in the investigative profession. Verified experience in the investigative profession. That doesn't mean PI 10 years. It could be a police or military police or you know that kind of thing, or private sector experience. They do a legit background check. It's also thrown out in front of the whole entire membership to make sure if anybody weed out bad apples they don't let everybody in and IntelNet also removes people. They have a strong code of ethics and through the years unfortunately there's some bad apples that had to be weeded out. But that also shows that it's a legit organization.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's definitely one of the, I think, maybe the most strict ones that I've ever looked into and I think when it was presented to me when I first started out, I didn't meet the criteria. So now that I've been in business a little while. I'm ready to look back into that, that is. I'm not big on associations personally. I don't know why. Maybe I should reassess that, but that's one I would consider joining for sure.
Speaker 2:That seems like a very legit one, and they also have typically good education.
Speaker 1:They typically have, like Intel, net, nally, nciss, cii, wod. They all have conferences at least once a year and those are great. I would encourage people to go to those kind of things because those are great to meet people in person network with people.
Speaker 1:Get to know someone outside of just work too, but it just strengthens your business so much more, and learning is important. You got to keep up on the laws. Joining your state association is important. They may not be a very strong state of association, but once in a while they're going to have a meeting where they bring an attorney that's going to talk about. You know laws that impact surveillance, for instance. Oh, for sure. Or GPS tracking in your state. I was just going to say.
Speaker 3:Speaking of that, I'm going to press the pause button. The sponsor actually one of my sponsors, my platinum level sponsor is safewatch360.com, and they're a small GPS company here based in South Carolina. I don't know if you've heard of them, but I just would like to take a minute to talk about them. Not only is their equipment second to none, they have extended battery packs for trackers to make them last longer, so you're not switching them out quite as often. Their customer service is really why I still use them. You know I've used them for years now. Their customer service is second to none. I call them on the weekend with an issue. They resolve it immediately and you just you don't find that level of customer service anywhere really, especially with a GPS company. So that's safewatch360.com.
Speaker 1:And they've offered a 30% off discount for listeners of this podcast, so that code is podcast30. So, anyway, continue. In Michigan, for instance, we are exempt licensed professional investigators from the law that makes it illegal to put trackers on a vehicle. We have an exemption.
Speaker 3:As are we. South Carolina is like that as well. It's not explicitly stated, but we're exempt from stalking laws.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have our own section in the law. Okay, very good. And I'm proud to say that I helped write it. Oh that's amazing.
Speaker 1:And lobbied for it. In that, yeah, we helped rewrite our PI Act here in Michigan a couple of times. We've been very active legislatively also at the federal level. So you know associations are important at times for sure. Right, I'd encourage you to join your state in some sort of national international If you you think you might do stuff on the international level or North America level. Intelnet's an excellent one. If you're in involved with criminal defense work, um, I would definitely suggest you look at National Association of Legal Investigators, nali. Okay, definitely those two groups for sure. Not to say anything's wrong with the other groups out there, just my experience with these groups have been those two have been very professional people in the general membership good to know.
Speaker 3:Thank you for that input yeah, yeah so you actually pushed a law to get PIs exempt from breaking the law when it comes to GPS trackers. How did you manage to do that? Because I know I just interviewed somebody on my two podcasts ago that lived in a state Oklahoma to be exact where PIs were banned from from using GPS trackers, and we were talking about how it's really a disservice to the client because they're then forced to pay more, basically, for a job that could have been completed if they were in fact able to use a GPS tracker.
Speaker 1:Well, it took a lot of time and communication is what happened, and we worked with a lobby firm that we retained that was also managing the association, so it's an association management firm. That was also a lobbyist. Okay. And that helped get us in front of. And then we had to explain what they really were and what they really did.
Speaker 1:You know, they, they were thinking that we were listening to conversations with these things and all these you know and then we we got involved with a couple groups, including the ACLU and women that have been victims of domestic violence and violence in general groups. We actually work with these victims many times to intercept and get the information needed so that these folks can get taken off the streets by law enforcement. Because law enforcement can't conduct counter surveillance work. They can, but I mean they can't do it for everybody and we have that ability and GPS trackers is a great, true tool that to help surveillance oh, it's invaluable.
Speaker 3:In my opinion, it just makes the whole thing just run so much more efficiently right, and yeah are they.
Speaker 1:Can they be used negatively? Yes, are there bad actors in the pi world? Yes, but it's so minimal. It it's so minimal. I agree. There's bad doctors in every profession, that's right. There's bad doctors, there's bad police. The vast majority of those professions they're good people, and so you know. That's where education comes in, also knowing the state laws. You know, if it's illegal in Oklahoma, then it is is and you just have to deal with that. But their clients also have to know that too. You know there was a time when you could get telephone records totally legally and then it became a federal law. You couldn't, so you changed your clients. I can't do that legally anymore, right.
Speaker 3:Right, you just have to change your strategies and your tactics and that's in any profession.
Speaker 1:I can't tell you how many times I've had to tell attorneys through the years. No, I'm not getting total records anymore, you would think they would know Right. You know it goes down to ethics.
Speaker 3:Very true, very true. And it's just not worth. You know, if you, if you obtain something illegally, you can't use it in court. So there's really no point in my opinion. That's what I tell people. You know, even if I had bad ethics and I wanted to do something illegal, you can't use it. It's not useful to you for the most part. So I totally agree with you there. What let's transition a little bit to what advice would you give somebody who's just starting a PI business? Not necessarily somebody who's just getting into the industry, but somebody who's starting. They're going out on their own, if you will.
Speaker 1:Well, I definitely would say join your state association number one, because now you're going to start interacting with people who've been around for a while and some of those will be helpful people, others will not. You know, just like any other business. But at least you're networking and learning. Get as much education as you can on what you want to do. Try to narrow it down to. If you just want to do surveillance work, then just focus on that. Don't be everything to everybody. If a client calls and asks you for something you know you don't have the ability to do, tell them. But then also tell them I will work really hard to find somebody that can do that for you. That will pay you back immensely, because that attorney will remember the professionalism and how you help them.
Speaker 3:And that is a really good point. And sometimes I have found that there is a way to make money off of that as well, if that's your thing, because a lot of times the clients that trust you want to only talk to you. They don't want to talk to whoever you're referring them to, who does specializes in whatever. So a lot of times they will pay your retainer and you can pay your vendors out of that retainer and just become kind of the coordinator and the point of contact, and that is a service for clients that I think a lot of PIs don't realize or don't talk about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're a case manager. I've done that many times. I mean, I refer work all the time all over the country and all over the world, and most times I just refer it and I just call this person and call you, for instance, and people are going to take care of you because I know they can do that there in your part of the world, but other times they do want you to handle it and so okay, but I also let them know I won't be doing the work.
Speaker 3:Right and that's important to say up front.
Speaker 1:I'm going to manage this for you and get it taken care of. Had a very large surveillance case a few years ago and I don't do surveillance work anymore. I did that many years ago and I don't. I don't enjoy it.
Speaker 3:Who does right? I don't know. Some people love it. I don't know anyone. There's a company.
Speaker 1:There's a company here in Michigan that specializes in that and does a fantastic job and they have employees and everything that and does a fantastic job, and they have employees and everything, and so they wanted. So I hired them and they did a fantastic job and they sent me the video, did everything, and I just packaged it and got it to the clients and was the go-between and, uh, you know, I took money for my time, of course, um, but they got paid very well as well, you know, and it worked out right, but you know, but I find just net, uh, quick referrals.
Speaker 1:You know I need somebody served in texas or I need a surveillance done in you know wherever alabama, and you know, I know somebody down there.
Speaker 3:Just I just give them a number and say they'll take care of you right right yeah, and I guess you know, I know somebody down there I just give them a number and say they'll take care of you, right, right yeah, and I guess you know it's just case dependent and, like I said, some of my clients just don't honestly want to deal with anyone else and so that part of it becomes the service. And in our company we kind of pride ourselves on just good communication, good client communication, and that that goes a long way. So that would be my advice for somebody trying to open a business. You know, just good client, good honest client communication, will do wonders for your business. So we kind of already talked about how your business is structured. You're kind of on the model where you're using contractors at the moment. So we don't go there. What are you? Who are your best referrals in your ideal target markets? So I guess for you it will, other than the government stuff, it would be corporations, am I correct?
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Corporations are definitely. They pay better than the government. The government pays faster.
Speaker 3:Really, I wouldn't think that that's interesting.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I put in invoices and they're paid within seven days. Wow. Right directly into the account. So, yeah, I have no issues with payment. Uh, I very rarely work for attorneys anymore. Uh, they're the hardest people to get money out of, um, and I just got tired of it. So I cut them out, uh, unless they're an internal attorney for a corporation. Uh, but I don't even. Yeah, I don't just prefer not to work with that element. But I'm not saying it's the wrong thing, Right, right.
Speaker 3:No, you're right, it's you know different things for everybody, but the corporation itself is interesting. So just, I guess maybe expand on the marketing part of it. How do you market yourself to these large corporations? Do you set up meetings with them in person or drop?
Speaker 1:off A lot of that. I you know now, since 9-11, private sector security and corporations has expanded immensely. Right.
Speaker 1:And there there was a group, but still a group. It's called ASIS International now but that initially started out as American Society for Industrial Security and they are the largest. But ASIS International is the largest security organization in the world bar none. When they had their annual conference. They have 30,000, 40,000 people attend from all aspects of the world, in government, private sector. They're just massive. In fact they're having their national conference, international conference in Orlando coming up this month or next month actually.
Speaker 1:But they have chapters in every city, just about several chapters in each state usually, and they're usually in the major cities and I go and speak in front of their security directors that tend to be members of that and attend those. And then they know the kind of services that I provide and I give a, you know, a presentation on TSC and work typically, or you know primarily that's what I'm marketing to them and uh, and what it is they don't know and the abilities and that kind of thing, and uh, I found through the years that speaking in front of groups is the best, even when I started and I did work for attorneys, going to local bar association meetings and offering to speak on what you know, what you do and how you can help them and their clients, or how people aren't better. Yet, instead of marketing yourself, marketing the profession I find is more effective.
Speaker 1:I mean you're marketing yourself just being there right right no, exactly you know business cards and what have you or string stringing?
Speaker 3:Well, a lot of it is about like speaking to marketing the profession. A lot of it what I have found personally is about educating the customer, the potential client, on what it is we can do to help them, because most people just don't know and there's a lot of misconceptions when somebody hears the word private investigator and I guess that maybe stems from Hollywood or something, but people have a very sometimes not in touch with reality view of the industry. So just I have found just educating people on how we can help their business or how we can help their case, whatever the situation is, goes a really long way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you'll notice that I say professional investigator, I don't say private investigator.
Speaker 3:Right, that's a good, that's actually a great idea.
Speaker 1:So in our state, when I was involved in this too, we changed what we are called here. We are licensed professional investigator.
Speaker 3:Okay, wow, so that's actually the legal terminology for okay.
Speaker 1:Right, and I think that goes, just it's. It seems like a little thing, but oh it's huge.
Speaker 3:That is huge, I agree.
Speaker 1:Radiate professionalism and you know. And so back to the marketing aspect. Speaking and getting in front of people is the great, great way. If your business model is just going to be a be a contractor for other PI firms, then the association world is the way to go. Right. Because Now they are your clients. You know other PIs Well, and that's just a pause not to interrupt you, but I've.
Speaker 3:so I've recently kind of switched over to that line of thinking, whereas historically I didn't, because we were all kind of doing the same thing. Recently I just got certified, I just got my CFE Certified Fraud Examiner, and so I'm finding that PIs actually other PIs are kind of a target for me now, because not everybody does financial investigations. There's a huge need for it, huge whether it's family court, whether it's business, you know, corporate stuff there's.
Speaker 1:it's very underrepresented in the general PI world, and CFE is another great organization that has chapters on them, the ACFE, yeah. Yeah, acfe. I'm not a member or have that designation, but I'm well aware of them and have used their members for cases in the past. They have chapters all over the place and they also provide great education for their members specific to that type of work. So I mean-.
Speaker 3:Second to none, really the education is phenomenal, it's worth joining just for that, even as an associate member, if you can't become certified yet.
Speaker 1:Smart move on your part to do.
Speaker 3:Yes, thank you, and I actually. What brought me into it? Weirdly not to go off on a tangent I'm a very business minded individual. I have my degree in business, I have several master's level classes in accounting and whatnot, but what brought me into the world of financial investigations was family court. It was jilted spouses hiding assets, assets from a spouse who doesn't want to give them to the other spouse, you can uncover anything financially speaking.
Speaker 3:So that's really what brought me into it. I kind of took a weird track, but I saw the need for it and jumped on it. So yeah, associations I've been looking at differently for that reason, you know, using them as networking opportunities with other PIs to your point.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you know I never was one to put ads. I did, experimented with it a bit, but ads and like different publications and what have you, but I really didn't that never. The return on investment was pretty, pretty weak. Um, so I you know, to me it was really networking word of mouth. It's been the number one factor that led me to be a successful business person in this profession advertising.
Speaker 3:It's all been building relationships and I feel like that's the most solid foundation because that's a repeat. You'll get repeat referrals rather than somebody Googling you on the internet that's going to use you maybe one time or whatever. It's the gift that keeps on giving building relationships.
Speaker 1:I feel like and a perfect example I used to have. I don't have a website for it. Oh, wow. Which is different? That is different.
Speaker 1:I would encourage people to have a website for sure, but I have found because I've been around so long, the vast majority of my clients already know how to get a hold of me. They're returning clients over and over and over again, and when I get referred by one of them, the new person asked for my CD and I sent it to them. And then also the people I was getting calling me because of the bug sweeps were all freaking out.
Speaker 3:Yes, I totally understand where you're going with that.
Speaker 1:You know. So actually I took it down for a while just to see what would happen. Nothing changed, except for the lack of dumb phone calls, and and my business kept thriving. So you know, I'm getting ready to soon be completely out of this, though.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's actually my next question. So why don't you speak to that about your goals and plans for the future, personally and then professionally for your business?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean I'd like to retire and travel and me and my girlfriend both want to be in that position to go around the country and the world. And I think we're about there. My kids are grown and actively working. I have one in law enforcement and one's in a nurse and they're both doing great, so I don't have to worry about them. And the business aspect you know, 30 years is a long time. Some people it's their whole identity, like I was talking about earlier. That's why you got to watch out for those. Some of those leaders in different organizations. They can't let go and let it go. I don't have that. I mean I've enjoyed my career, I'm happy about it, it's done really well for me and my family.
Speaker 1:But it's time to also think about just Peter and his wants, and so you know I've slowed down a lot. Already I'm almost 60. So I got a little bit more time, but you know I stopped doing certain work. I've retired from certain aspects of this business that I don't do anymore at all, and so that that's really the goal is to to move on. There's more to life than PI work out there.
Speaker 3:That is true. That's hard to remember sometimes, but yes. Um are you planning on just shutting down? Are you going to sell your business?
Speaker 1:Uh, I'll probably end up selling the equipment. Uh, no, my business. No, I'll end up just.
Speaker 3:Just the equipment, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have a big project that's currently going on utilizing people from an organization, an association. That's basically going to put me in a position to retire oh, that's great you know and and uh, yeah, the intel net is the.
Speaker 1:The general membership has uh been amazing for that kind of thing. Um, to uh literally write it into a contract where they know that I'm using intel net members because of the strict requirements to join uh and the quality of people and the backgrounds they come from, that I'm able to get contracts that bigger companies would normally get because of their logistics and all the people they have. Well, intelnet really is giving you a company.
Speaker 3:Right, right, it's giving you a whole network, yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, right, it's not giving you the office.
Speaker 3:Internationally. I don't know if we've mentioned that it's an international organization.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, they're like in 70, 80 countries membership and you know they're not giving you the office staff you know to manage the case, but they're definitely giving you the people to get the job done and in so many ways. So you know that that has been a big push. While I'm kind of heading out the door here, but again, you know PI work is not. There's more to life than that some you know in the association world. I just reiterate this that you got to be careful from the egos and some of the the, the older guys and gals out there that just can't let go and their leadership is, uh, focus more on the rank and file membership right right right oh yeah, and every.
Speaker 3:I mean I guess it's like in any organization with its politics. I mean I stay out of the political drama, if you will, of our state association. I was a member early on in the beginning and it was good. I still use them for continuing education. Sometimes I'll go to the conferences but, like I said, now that my networking target market, if you will, has kind of switched a little bit, I'll probably rejoin. But yeah, I have nothing bad to say overall. It's just use it for what it is, don't get caught up in it.
Speaker 1:Like you said, Right, Absolutely, and you know you got to use good judgment in who you're working with.
Speaker 3:That's right Exactly. I guess we'll just conclude. I'll give you the floor for the last little bit here. You can ask me any questions you want and then wrap it up any way you want as far as advice or just promoting your business, whatever it is you wanna do, so go ahead.
Speaker 1:Well, I would just say, especially the new folks out there just getting in this profession maybe you're just coming out of a career in law enforcement or you're coming from private sector, maybe the insurance industry or whatever work for a law firm and you decide to go out on your own is get that education. I mean going to college. I mean going out taking a class, maybe at college, on criminal evidence, if the criminal defense is something you really enjoy, or going to a conference where you see somebody speaking on aspects of surveillance or privacy issues. I'd say, definitely get to know your political leadership in your state legislation Well, not even your leadership, your state legislation Well, not even your leadership. Your state representatives and, if you can, your federal representatives. They're a great networking opportunity for you also because they get to know you Investing a little money in their campaigns. I know it's just a part of the world we live in.
Speaker 3:It's the nature of the beast.
Speaker 1:yeah, but you know they're going to remember you and when it comes to you know if they're about to pass some bad legislation in your state, it'll be helpful to know somebody there that you can call and go. Hey, your intentions are great with this bill. However, did you know you're really hurting another aspect? That's not. You know, and you'll have a seat at the table that you might not otherwise, but, excuse me, I would say, do that, and you know, just getting out there and networking, you can't and remember, you can't do everything yourself, and you know. And the folks coming out of law enforcement I've seen this so many times that they think that they know every aspect, but you know, the day after they retire everything they get turned, they lose their keys and access to that information well, and just to pause you for a second, I have found that to be the case.
Speaker 3:If I've hired ex-law enforcement, it's, it's um, it's a different skill set. You would think it would translate over better, but it doesn't, and it's because they're used to working in an official capacity where they can show a badge and get the information they need or whatever, and it just doesn't work like that in the private sector.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and you know, and they and speaking to them not because of negative so many great investigators out there in our world that are former law enforcement. They bring so many good things to the table, but but they weren't business people, they were government employees. So they've never ran a business.
Speaker 3:For the most part, there's exceptions Right, and that's very true.
Speaker 1:Learn the bit I would say to that element of our profession. Learn the business aspects of this. Take a business course. Learn about you know they never had to deal with clients. Learn about all the databases out there that we have access to. Now you're going to have to pay for those databases, whereas before you could just punch it in for free at your department. You know you're not going to have access to lean any. You know all these kinds of things, but you also know, have to know, about billing, how to interact with the customer and all these different things. So I encourage and that goes for even those that come from non-law enforcement military right, even just an employee, you know.
Speaker 1:I had to learn those things too at the beginning right right and so some people, honestly, it comes more naturally than others.
Speaker 3:Some people just have that. I'm one of those people who just has that business mindset. I always have, since I was seven running a lemonade stand. But um, and so those people have to. I had to focus more on the technical side of things when I came into this industry the education, how to do this, how to do that, um, so it could go either way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and focus in on two or three aspects that you're good at and go after those type of clients. If it's criminal defense, do that. If it's surveillance for insurance, do that. If it's domestic, do that. Or whatever it is TSM or whatever your needs are for your business, focus in on that. Find out who the clients are for that type of service and go after them. Go speak to them, write them letters if you need, or whatever type of thing. In-person is always the best. Get in front of the groups that they attend and they're going to start sharing and then ultimately do a good job. And if make a mistake, own up to it. Don't try to cover it up, say I screwed up and you know what, once in a while you're going to lose a client and once in a while also, the biggest lesson learned is to be able to say no, no, thank you, I don't want to boundaries are huge I don't, I don't want to work for you.
Speaker 1:It's one of the hardest things and two of the hardest things learning how to say no to a client or a potential client and just forgetting that. Oh geez, I'm going to. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to do this because it makes all this money. No, it may be unethical, it may just something you're not comfortable with or you know what?
Speaker 3:maybe they're just a jerk on the phone right just your instincts and get rid of oh I just kicked somebody out of my office well, is it last week or the week before? Because I didn't like their attitude. I'm like goodbye, get out.
Speaker 1:This is your business.
Speaker 3:You don't have yeah, you're not going to talk to me or my staff like that. Goodbye. Very very easy.
Speaker 1:They know and is what are, and also charge appropriately. You know, you, if you are Brand new, like out of college and getting into this and then started, you know your rates are going to be probably lower. But if you do have 25, 30 years of law enforcement experience and you, you know, as a detective or and you're doing, you know charge appropriately. Don't be charging $10 an hour or $15. There's no one in this country that should be charging less than 55 an hour for anything. Right.
Speaker 1:It really should be up. You know 55 an hour for anything Right. It really should be up. You know, well over a hundred.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, depending on how many years you know experience and as you right, as you gain experience like we're about to raise our rates here because of that CFE certification there's a need for it. Nobody else does it in my area, so we're raising our rates. So it's as you gain more experience. You know you don't have to stay at that rate forever. It's okay to raise your rates. Don't do it, you know, just because haphazardly, because you'll lose clients. But once you build a relationship with people, they see your value. You have education, you have certification. Then it's okay to raise them.
Speaker 1:I would say Well, right, and don't also think that undercutting is going to get you the business.
Speaker 3:Well, right, and don't also think that undercutting is going to get you the business. Yeah, that's not. I don't have a problem with that I don't undercut anyone.
Speaker 1:I don't want cheap clients. Right People try that, I know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Especially big national companies, that's. That's personally why I don't do insurance work at all, because I find that most of it is these large, these big investigate you know national investigators, investigative companies who come in and want to pay $55 an hour and we just don't do that.
Speaker 1:Right, you know, and they're usually doing the surveillance work. Yeah, so you know, whereas if you're doing more intense type investigations, that's nothing against surveillance, but if you're doing, you know, out there pounding the pavement. Yeah, in conducting an invest, a full investigation, you know you should be up in the 100 plus range right you definitely should be, and anybody that says you shouldn't be, you ask them why right now attorney. You know how much do you charge, mr attorney well I have a law degree.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, you're charging three or four hundred dollars an hour, so you're begrudging me right 100 an hour no and listen.
Speaker 3:I agree with attorneys charging that much because I understand what it takes, what kind of work it takes and knowledge it takes to go into a case. However, when you have somebody who's a large part of you winning a case, they should be compensated accordingly for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, regardless if you win or lose, you're hired to do a job and charge them appropriately. That's you know. Unfortunately, in the association world, you can't talk, have this conversation in an association because of the laws. Oh, okay. Price fixing, but, like in this type of interview, we can actually be honest about it, right? Right. And, if we're honest, the industry is so undercharging for our services. Yep. Across, especially the United States, Over in Europe and stuff. They charge a lot. It's a lot more expensive. Yep.
Speaker 1:And we should be doing the same here. I would definitely reevaluate what you're charging your clients.
Speaker 3:That's good to know. Yeah, that's a good point, I think, and I think a lot of it, like you said, is know your work, know what you bring to the table and do a good job, and if you have confidence in your company and in your work, then you won't have an issue charging what needs to be charged. So well, I think. That concludes our interview here. So I really appreciate you coming on and we will have to keep in touch. I have your contact information and if we ever need or hear of anybody that needs anything that you offer as far as counter surveillance, we will definitely give you a call.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you having me and I've enjoyed talking with you.
Speaker 3:Yes, we'll keep in touch. Thank you, have a great day.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 3:Bye. That concludes this episode of investigators round table. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe and share, and information about myself and my guests can be found in the description box below. Once again, I'm your host, amanda Appy from Immaculate Investigations LLC, and thank you so much for watching.